I know this isn’t a breathtakingly original sentiment, but the new styles of communication facilitated by the Internet throw up new situations, or are they just the same old human quirks magnified? I’ve come across a few examples recently.
On the down-side, there have been a few times when I’ve felt like staying uninvolved and just getting away from the internet for a while. I’m sure I could contribute a lot more to the online Oracle community but I don’t think I’m alone in feeling that it’s a fairly aggressive and negative world out there in comp.databases.oracle.server and other forums. I’m not even sure that I’m completely against the ‘shouldn’t you sit down and read the manuals for a while and come back later?’ type of response because I can understand where the posters are coming from. But if it’s turning people off who could maybe add something, surely that can’t be a good thing? It seems to me that there are “acceptable” and “unacceptable” questions and debates and when things start to get like that, I start to switch off.
On the up-side, I’ve heard from a couple of old colleagues via email lately who’ve tracked me down via the blog or the px paper and that’s been an extremely pleasant surprise. I realised recently that I’ve worked with tons of people because of the nature of contracting and I’m starting to get to the embarassing stage (that I used to criticise my dad for) of not being able to instantly remember all of my ex-colleagues. So when they pop up to remind me, it makes my day, particularly when quite a few of them think that I helped them on their way with Oracle. (Unlike a lot of contractors I’ve come across, I love helping permies get up to speed because I think everyone gains in the end.)
On the down-side, I just found out that an old mate who I haven’t seen for over 15 years has been hit by lung cancer and it sounds like it’s at a pretty advanced stage. This is a mixed one, because years ago I might not have heard about this until it was too late. Hopefully I can catch up with him soon.
On the up-side, I’ve just received a small stack of copies of Select – the IOUG’s user magazine – with the px article in it. Sadly, after various people helped out in correcting the article and I tried to get the corrections in before the deadline, it looks like they’ve only been able to print my original (flawed) article. Which is disappointing and I’ll need to fire off a few apologies to the various contributors. So why is this on the up-side? Because I’m able to have a corrected version on-line at http://oracledoug.com/px.html. I asked that a link to this be put in the article if they couldn’t get the changes in in time, but although there’s a link to my home page, the link to the paper isn’t explicit in the magazine. So, hopefully people will see this instead! For info, the biggest flaw by far is that, based on my prior knowledge of parallel DML, I insisted that there was only one px slave per partition on a partitioned table. Which is demonstrable rubbish. I know it’s demonstrable because that’s exactly what Tom Kyte and Jonathan Lewis did. (Doh!)
So, if you’re a Select reader, check out the most up-to-date version online.
Finally on the up-side, I enjoyed getting a few house-warming messages now that I’ve managed to make the move to blogger.com. I have to say that it seems like a much better experience so far. Now how do you all manage your RSS feeds to orablogs.com?
Maybe the internet just makes our community bigger and more varied and in some ways that’s actually harder to deal with than the small community of family and friends you might come across in the past. It definitely makes things a lot more interesting though!
About the forums part, I kind of agree as well as disagree.
There are some genuine people who actually just get started and donât know where to start from, or where to look in for a problem, as they donât have anyone to guide them. They turn up to forums to ask question hoping that they might get the answer.
But then there are people who come to forums only when they want an answer, they avoid reading and want a quick reply and would never be heard of again until they face another problem. IMHO I feel it should be both ways. Help others when you have time as well. If you have time enough to ask a question, take out some time to answer some.
I love to read questions which starts off as a discussion, not which starts off like âURGENT â, âanswer this as soon as possibleâ. I usually ignore them.
I visit forums for a selfish reason. It actually keeps me on my toes. It is one way I try to keep my self brushed up and learn new things.
For the orablogs part I think you need to send a mail to Brian.Duff@oracle.com with the RSS feed. You can create your rss feed on feedburner and use http://oracledoug.blogspot.com/atom.xml as source feed URL
Hope that Helps
Adewri,
Thanks for the tips. I tried feedburner, but it just seemed to be sending atom still. I think I need to put a bit more work into that.
I think your forum comments are just about spot-on. The problem is that maybe someone new comes in with a specific question that they’ve been thinking about for ages then it’s misintepreted and pounced on. Here’s an example :-
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.databases.oracle.server/browse_frm/thread/803e88966230b17f/05f784c38e3ad8f5?lnk=raot#05f784c38e3ad8f5
This was a question that I myself had asked when I’d worked with Oracle for a long time and, to me, it’s a question that arises out of *understanding* the architecture, not the other way around. It seems like a bit of a loophole, worthy of discussion at least, and yet the answer includes RTFM. I still think that’s disappointing, but maybe I’m over-sensitive sometimes!
You’re right, though. Some questioners just seem to have the ‘fill my head up with knowledge for me, please’ attitude.
Not long after I posted this, I came across this entry on Howard’s blog.
http://www.dizwell.com/2005/08/bullys-wife-speaks.html
One thing that definitely isn’t needed in the online community is bullying threats. If you can’t defend your position using simple argument, you should run away and hide (which is what I might do 😉 ), not appeal to the law or try to frighten third parties. All that would indicate is that you don’t have the courage to ‘go after’ the original commentator.
Just like a school bully and no-one liked them, did they?
Well that was some thread…
I don’t know what to say. I myself have give RTFM few times. Well that was because the guy had OCP 8i written in his signature. This is something that really bugs me. And the questions were something that a beginner should know.
But as we grow, with more knowledge, more responsibilities come on you. Now either I ignore such questions or try to think what Tom Kyte would do (he has been answering for long time without getting tired) and try to answer to the best of my knowledge (canât compare to his wisdom and patience) or point to a document link. Well he answers lots of my stupid questionsï, as he did in last few days on Transparent Data Encryption.
PMFJI, came here from another blog.
The difference with Tom is that he works for Oracle. Therefore presumably, he has a vested interest in answering as many questions as possible. And I believe in the end, he gets paid in part for that.
People in c.d.o.s have been answering questions for nearly a decade, day-in night-out, paid by no one and many times mentioned (and discredited) by Oracle marketing as “the fringe. When marketing is in a good mood…
Ie, no acknowledgmenet whatsoever of their contributions by anyone anywhere within or outside Oracle. Quite the opposite, in fact: when it comes to criticism and ad-homine attacks, it happens first in c.d.o.s.
One thing seems to be a constant: there are no hangups or permanent bad blood, with very few exceptions.
People blow a torch at something that irritates them, and then promptly forget about it. Next time the noob asks a less silly question, he/she gets an answer that is usually useful.
There is therefore a price to pay for using such newsgroups: put up with the occasional outburst, grow a thick skin and hang around for the good moments. For the price of admition, I don’t think it’s such a bad deal.
PMFJI
Noons, your c$erve is showing 🙂
People in c.d.o.s have been answering questions for nearly a decade
Some for longer than that! But as usual, your advice in the last three paragraphs ought to be in^H^H the FAQ.
Re: The Internet I think the answers in this thread missed the true answer – to create an Oblogcomm, it just needed a visionary or popular person for a jump start – which of course was Tom Kyte’s blog.
I still think that blogging loses the network style layout that usenet has – I think trackback is supposed to fulfill that function, but doesn’t for some reason, as in “it isn’t automatic.” So, as with BBS, I find myself forgetting where I’ve posted except for a few favored spots.
I’m not convinced a lot of the negative and agressive things are all that bad – do any of us have a non-boring situation in meatworld when we perform DBA functions? Isn’t that why Dilbert is so funny? It’s only when the aggression loops or iterates that it is really bad. But between web pages, blogs, members-only BBS and such, it becomes too easy for good examplars (or bad examplars, some who may be informative and some who may be… not) to just go elsewhere. I think that sort of community fragmentation causes some loss of utility of all online fora.
Or maybe cdos is just in the summer doldrums and will pick up when the squids return to class.
Berners-Lee on the read/write web
Hi Nuno,
>> PMFJI, came here from another blog.
Feel free. The more the merrier.
>> The difference with Tom is that he works for Oracle. Therefore presumably, he has a vested interest in answering as many questions as possible. And I believe in the end, he gets paid in part for that.
I’m not sure I agree with that entirely. I’m sure that Tom does see it as part of his work for Oracle (it certainly does the company a lot of good and he gets through too many questions for it all to be in his spare time) but I remember seeing him floating around cdos before any formal role existed I think. It strikes me that he’s just another one of those guys who likes to help. Jonathan, Connor and HJR seemed mainly helpful to me and it wasn’t part of their job.
>> Ie, no acknowledgmenet whatsoever of their contributions by anyone anywhere within or outside Oracle. Quite the opposite, in fact: when it comes to criticism and ad-homine attacks, it happens first in c.d.o.s.
I admire the amount of effort that a number of individuals put into answering those questions. I’m not convinced there’s no acknowledgement of their efforts, though. The group seems to be full of people who will say – ‘back off, pal, this expert has answered many questions for no fee’. Are you *really* convinced these poor bunnies get no credit? Make no mistake, they deserve it, but only for answering the questions, not for being superior and slapping down newbies.
>> One thing seems to be a constant: there are no hangups or permanent bad blood, with very few exceptions.
People blow a torch at something that irritates them, and then promptly forget about it. Next time the noob asks a less silly question, he/she gets an answer that is usually useful.
Good point which I’d probably be more aware of if I didn’t tend to dip in and out of cdos. One thing I’ve noticed is that at least people don’t throw their toys out of the pram and refuse to participate in the group any more. I think I would be tempted to do that if I was attacked, so they’re bigger people than me in that respect!
>> There is therefore a price to pay for using such newsgroups: put up with the occasional outburst, grow a thick skin and hang around for the good moments. For the price of admition, I don’t think it’s such a bad deal.
Perhaps that’s true. However, it seems to me that it’s a little more than ‘the occasional outburst’. I find it depressing to have a look in, see a new question and be able to predict how negative the answer is going to be, when it could be positive with very little extra effort. There are more constructive ways of saying ‘RTFM’ than the methods I see employed there. Put it this way, I’m very loathe to contribute anything to cdos because I couldn’t be bothered with the agression and I know others who feel the same. Isn’t it a shame to lose that possibly constructive input? Isn’t that why a group becomes dominated by a few people – not because they’re more prepared to put the work in, but others just don’t appreciate the style? (and give in too easily, of course …)
I need to be honest here, though. I struggle just as much as anyone with Mr. Oracle 8i, 9i OCP who asks how to export a single table. Grrrr … I’m certainly not suggesting that no-one deserves a gentle slap, but the bar seems to be set ludicrously high these days.
In the end, it is a valuable and free resource and it’s to be welcomed, but maybe it could be even better?
Thanks for another point of view – one of the upsides I was talking about in the original posting.
Cheers,
Doug
Cheers, Anon. What a timely article. The read/write aspect also reminds me of Tom Kyte’s suggestion that every page on the web have an ‘add comments’ button.
Joel,
Thanks for the link. Of course the first bit I noticed was …
>> Maybe blogging is just self-absorbed drivel
Mmmm, you might have a point there 😉
>> I still think that blogging loses the network style layout that usenet has – I think trackback is supposed to fulfill that function, but doesn’t for some reason, as in “it isn’t automatic.” So, as with BBS, I find myself forgetting where I’ve posted except for a few favored spots.
Excellent point. I think blogging probably serves a completely different purpose though. In fact, I would be *very* disappointed to see newsgroups disappear, I’m just whining a little about the content.
I’d originally wondered about whether blogging was a useful way of getting technical content out there (about time I came up with some!), but I’ve decided that it is because the search engines seem to pick it up pretty well. I’ve had quite a few hits on SMU from a couple of blog postings. It’s also a quick way to come up with stuff that doesn’t need nice formatting etc when I have a busy job too.
>> I’m not convinced a lot of the negative and agressive things are all that bad – do any of us have a non-boring situation in meatworld when we perform DBA functions? Isn’t that why Dilbert is so funny? It’s only when the aggression loops or iterates that it is really bad.
Oh, you should know that I’m considered a rottweiler at work! I specialise in both naked aggression and withering sarcasm – it’s my idea of fun sometimes 😉 Can’t that be toned down just a bit when using a public forum, though? It’s likely that new people will come along and, the more welcoming the environment, the more their confidence is likely to grow to a level when they make useful contributions? Don’t you think there will be people who are positively scared to answer questions?
>> But between web pages, blogs, members-only BBS and such, it becomes too easy for good examplars (or bad examplars, some who may be informative and some who may be… not) to just go elsewhere. I think that sort of community fragmentation causes some loss of utility of all online fora.
I’m definitely concerned about that. I’ve worked with a number of excellent Oracle DBAs and developers who would run a mile from cdos. So I think the problem is two-fold
1) A lack of community from people ‘doing their own thing’, which is down to those people (me included)
2) The unwelcoming nature of central groups like cdos (which is at least part of the reason for 1 for certain individuals (me included)
I’m not looking for everyone to play nice all the time, but are you really convinced that cdos is just a bit of gentle rough and tumble? Maybe I’m getting older and softer than I thought.
>>Or maybe cdos is just in the summer doldrums and will pick up when the squids return to class.
Maybe I’ve just been unlucky whenever I’ve looked in. Make no mistake, I don’t have the long term, consistent knowledge of the group that you guys have, but it seems to have got worse than my previous visits
Cheers,
Doug
Sorry, I just re-read this and wanted to fix it
Change :-
“Jonathan, Connor and HJR seemed mainly helpful to me and it wasn’t part of their job.”
To:-
“Jonathan, Connor and HJR seemed helpful to me and it wasn’t part of their job.”
You certainly raised a few interesting points. Just to touch on a few:
“Are you *really* convinced these poor bunnies get no credit?”
Yes, definitely. Not once have I ever heard any acknowledgment from Oracle or any affiliated organisation for the work cdos participants put in for over a decade. That group (and compuserve before it) made more to popularize and demistify Oracle than any $$$ Larry spent over the years in marketing for the same purpose.
” Make no mistake, they deserve it, but only for answering the questions, not for being superior and slapping down newbies.”
Absolutely. No one is perfect. I think the “superior” bit is more subjective than anything else. Few in there have that sort of attitude. And it’s OK to point it out every once in a while: every garden needs a trim at the top every once in a while, makes for stronger growth.
As for Tom, Jonathan and the rest: note that I commented in the context of Tom and asktom. To me, that’s part of his job. I know he used to go to cdos but since asktom he’s mostly stopped. Nothing wrong with that, it’s just that it’s a different ballgame for him now. Jonathan and the others still go to cdos regularly given that they don’t have something like asktom to take care of. No problems with that.
Part of the issues with cdos is that the group is obviously open to spam, marketing, badly disguised “plugs” and other activities of the ilk. Many regulars object to that but don’t manifest themselves as loudly as for example Dan Morgan. Every once in a while the thing gets over the limit and then a “bang” happens.
‘sOK, the Usenet has always been like that. All I’m saying is: take it in stride, don’t worry too much about the occasional blowup and enjoy the group by all means. And of course, contribute.
I agree with Joel: cdos is suffering of the summer doldrums. Another coupla months and it’ll be back to normal. Meanwhile, you’ll see the odd explosion, a lot of spam and some really good advice all mixed in.
Kinda like real life and why I like it so much.
Nuno,
Points taken.
“sOK, the Usenet has always been like that. All I’m saying is: take it in stride, don’t worry too much about the occasional blowup and enjoy the group by all means. And of course, contribute.”
Maybe. Let’s hope my first utterances don’t get shot down in flames, but I suppose I should wait and see.
Cheers,
Doug